Can technology make it easier to connect to nature?

Xander Wood hosts an insightful episode on how technology impacts the way we interact with nature, from social media to identification software. Xander is joined by guests Alana Wheat, Freddie Emms, and Kae Wrenn, who unpack their expereinces and opinions on all things techn and nature.

Episode transcript

Xander: Hello there and welcome to the Generation Nature podcast. Today we have a fantastic topic episode about technology and whether it can help young people connect to nature. Joining me from the Generation Nature community, first of all we have the fantastic Freddie Emms, a university student and a member of the RSPB Youth Council. Also from the RSPB Youth Council is Kae Wren, a young activist who is involved with many organisations doing on-the-ground work to help nature. And finally, also doing on-the-ground work, but in a different capacity, is Alana Wheat, a PhD student studying and using some of these technology tools to help increase nature connection. Technology and nature is an interesting topic because Technology is often seen as a barrier to people getting involved with nature. My own story has lots of impacts where technology made me act at times that I couldn't even see the world around me. We have heard of the term smombie where people will walk around not looking at anything else but their phone. But today we're going to discuss how technology can potentially make it easier than ever to connect to nature. Each member of our panel today will bring one way that technology is actually helping to make nature connection easier than ever. And let's start with one that I think is really important. So Freddie, what are you bringing to the table today?

Freddie: So I wanted to talk about a little bit about ID apps because you know we've heard that there's a report that came out a few years ago that said that when you come to young people, I think it was 8 year olds that were studied, but young people in general, more young people can actually identify Pokémon characters than they can species of animals and plants, which I think is just a really sad fact and it shows just how much nature disconnection there often is in our society and especially amongst young people. So that's really one side of things, this negative impacts of technology that we see all the time and that are kind of reported on all the time. But actually, I think as with most things in other society, it's not that simple and it's not just one-sided, because I think that technology can also be a really powerful tool to help us reconnect with nature as well. So with ID apps, there are some fantastic apps out there. One of my favourites is called Seek. And what they do is essentially kind of gamify nature reconnection itself, I think, which I think is a really brilliant way of kind of making the most of this issue of technology and gaming in particular, often detracting from nature connection as we sometimes see. But instead of kind of searching for Pokémon, these apps allow you to search for plants and animals out in nature and to actually identify them and learn more about them and put names to them as well. And I think, I mean, in my opinion, it's absolutely just as fun and it's just as it gives you just a sense, just as tangible a sense of fulfilment in this way. And I think, I mean, I guess you might ask kind of like, what's in a name? Why does it matter so much learning about the names of these creatures, of the plants and animals that we share our world with? But I think so much, I think that actually like learning the names of things and actually kind of getting out there and identifying different plants and animals, it can help us in so many ways to actually foster a closer connection with nature. language is so important because, once something becomes not just a butterfly, but a speckled wood or a painted lady, this is, it allows you to form such a closer connection to them and see them as individuals, as creatures and species, not just as kind of, generalized terms as butterflies.

Xander: So I'd like to open this up to a bit more of a discussion. So who here has used seat before?

Alana: Yeah, I have. Yeah.

Xander: So I think all of us have here. How do we find it in terms of that learning experience?

Alana: I think it's really positive for me. I always kind of go along and you've got field guides and things like that, especially being kind of from the academic background of having those field guides. But there's just something about being like, oh, actually, there's this fungi or there's this plant and it's flowering and I'm not 100% sure what it is. Or my gut reaction says it could be this, like it could be mouse ear chickweed or something like that, really quite random. But then being able to just go on to Seek or iNaturalist or whichever and then have a look into that and actually have that gut reaction either verified and like yes, it actually is that plant or actually no, it's not that, it's something else and therefore I can correct what my knowledge is on that topic as well. I find that really useful to use. Yeah.

Freddie: I would say sometimes it's important to take it with a pinch of salt though because I have fancy occasionally telling me that this tree is actually a species that's only found in the depths of China or something like that. So it doesn't always get exactly 100% right.

Xander: I will say it's probably a lot more accurate than what I would be when I had no knowledge of nature though. And then it just how you release it, just say where these are spotted. And I remember I spotted a bee once whilst on my bee walk and the bee said, oh, it's found in America. And the bee expert who was with us was like, what? that's not right, that's not here. But at least on the app, I was able to say, I'm not sure if this is meant to be here. And then it does have ways that you can take them out so it doesn't infect scientific, any data sources on. But yes, I really like it because that gamifying element of it. Kate, what are your thoughts about Seek or any of these apps that help you to learn and connect to nature?

Kae: I think My experience with Seek, I've not used it as much because I kind of ran away from technology for a couple of years. I use a Nokia. So when I was getting into nature, I went and spent a fortune on books and I used like bird ID books, wildflower books, butterfly, all of them. And I started with the kids ones and then worked my way up. So I'm now on the Collins ones because I've gotten good enough at bird ID mainly. But I found how my brain works is if I use Seek and it tells me what it is, I think that's cool. And then I don't and then I don't remember it. But the way I learned it and inputted it into my brain was I stopped on my bike, I took the book out my bag, I opened it to like a page that looked vaguely similar to the flower in front of me and then read a bit about it in the book and because of that it stuck in my brain and that's how I built up this wealth of knowledge in my mind. But then the sequel also has been helpful in the past where if I can't find it in the book whatsoever. I just see what it is on my phone and then look it up later. So I definitely don't use this as much because I used books and now I have the knowledge in my head anyway. But I can understand how it is very useful for some people though.

Xander: It's interesting comparison. So for me, for example, I didn't take the books with me anywhere, often because I'd be carrying loads of other things with me. And so seekers, for someone who didn't learn or didn't use the books, It was like having the boots, but the boots would just tell me what it is beforehand. And what I really like about it as well is that I use something called iNaturalist, which is also by the same company. And that has other people, other individual citizen scientists who will check what you've said you think it is based on what the app thinks it is. And they will be like, no, it's not this. It's this instead. And then that helps me to learn things. But I think if I spent a lot more active process learning the books, I'd be better. But that also then would mean I have to take around the books with me. And for someone who's newer to nature and is trying to connect to it in a more gentle way than maybe yourself did, I felt like it was really helpful because it means I've always got it with me, whereas I might not always have a nature book with me or all the nature books for the specific species of moth on me, for example, when I'm just wandering around.

Kae: Sometimes when I go on walks, I'm carrying my bird book, my wildflower book, my butterfly book, my bee book, my tree book. I don't carry my moth book around or my fungi book around. But yeah. And then I have multiple copies of all of those books. But yeah. I was going to.

Freddie: Put it out there and say you might carry around too many books with these things.

Kae: Maybe.

Xander: So. If you're not like a really interested nature like yourself, Kae, or you're getting into it, can be that alternative to having a ton of books. Obviously it's not quite as good as having books, but it is also free as well. So it is a good tool.

Alana: Yeah, so we're just on the point of, we're saying it goes to research and things like that with our naturalists as well. And something that is good, I know Freddie was saying about how it can the apps can sometimes throw up something entirely random that isn't in that area and would not be found there. But that is where those kind of research and citizen scientists, observers can really help because they can catch those observations and go, actually, we don't think it is this. So it doesn't become a research grade observation at that point. And therefore it's just like a general observation. So for example, on iNaturalist, you can take a picture of a dog or a cat and that could go into the database, but it will just disregard that and say, it's just a domestic dog or a domestic cat. So it won't add it to the important data set. But otherwise, it can be really useful for adding data to spaces where they won't actually normally get data. For example, roadside verges or that little derelict piece of land next to your neighbourhood or wherever that actually you've seen a really cool plant or a really cool piece of wildlife. But otherwise, people don't have the resources or companies don't have the resources to necessarily survey that. So by helping, by taking some pictures and uploading it to those spaces, you're adding data to it and filling in those data gaps, which is really great.

Xander: And I know with your research project, you've been using it quite a lot to get community-led data throughout the year via various contributions. When the mushroom season came up, it was amazing to see all the type of mushrooms we were getting in Staffordshire. It also has that gamifying element as well. You set up a leaderboard, didn't you?

Alana: Yeah, so all of the different sites that are part of the research project that I'm studying, we've been able to kind of circle it on a map and then upload it to iNaturalist and have them as individual projects. And this has been really good to see, okay, you know, the country parks, for example, might have a lot more data already than the roadside verges or those kind of smaller parks which are less well known, but just as important for the local community and for biodiversity and green corridor connectivity as well. So yeah, it's been really useful for that. And also it allows those groups to kind of see what information is being put up in their local area as well and kind of take more ownership of that data.

Xander: And with the leaderboards, it's made me want to compete and get more and more and more. So I could be like, I'm ahead of these people. which I really enjoyed, particularly when we're doing the City Nature Challenge. I could, you could compete, I know the entire Wildlife Trust in Staffordshire, they had a leaderboard, they were actively competing against each other.

Kae: But can I say York won?

Xander: Yeah, York.

Freddie: Yes, I remember this chat.

Kae: York won the City Nature Challenge. Can I just say that? Just putting it out there.

Freddie: Last time there was a City Nature Challenge, we got incredibly competitive in the group chat and it was mainly between York and Staffordshire and it was very fun.

Kae: Memes were created.

Freddie: Yes.

Kae: But York won, so yes.

Alana: It's usually the last weekend in April, so depending on when you're listening to this, definitely take part.

Xander: And there's deep surveys all year round, even if you're listening to this in December. And there's always that New Year plant hunts as well. You can take photos and put those into the apps. And that's the type of year when you naturally wouldn't be getting help. But these apps encourage you to go outside, connect with nature, take photos of the plants that are growing then. And as someone who wasn't in nature, I would have been like, what plants are growing then? But these apps are helping me to notice and go, oh, I want to collect that. I want to add that to my thing, you know, got to catch them all, got to seek them all, you know. I really like that gamify element. I feel like it gets people into it. And maybe we could try and get more of that like Pokémon Go type attitude that we had. But with these challenges, if we can get to the mass market, it'd be great.

Alana: And it's a bit like the nature's calendar idea with Wooden Trust as well. So it's like actually the first Daffodil you see or the first Bluebell or the first Daisy or whatever. whatever plant it is, it's that whole thing. Actually, that's really important for us to know for the climate change and warming weather and things like that for us to see when these flowers are now flowering. And often it's a lot earlier than in previous years.

Xander: Exactly. So I'd like to move on to our next element and our next item on the table. And I'd like to come back to yourself again, Alana, if that's okay. Because we've been talking about how seeking our naturalists and things can help you to spot these nature spots. But that's not the only technology enhancement that you can get with maps, is it? So can you talk about what you've brought to the table today?

Alana: Yeah, absolutely. So I have literally brought the idea of maps, but not necessarily the printed maps that you would take around. Obviously, they're also quite great for exploring your local nature spaces. But one in particular for me is Google Maps or whatever your comparison is and whatever device that you use. And I find that really useful for just kind of exploring around and looking at, okay, let's zoom into this green space. What is there? Is it publicly accessible? The great thing about Google Maps as well is people can put on reviews or recommendations. They can share if it's accessible. They can share if there's toilets at the site or if there's car parking or paths, if it's dog friendly and so on. So it's a really useful way of getting the site of it potentially before you visit, especially if you're not potentially from the area or you've just moved into the area. It's a really great way to kind of explore what is there.

Xander: And it's a really big accessibility point this is. We've had a few different people with different backgrounds, experiences and ways that they are involved in nature. And for some people, if there's not a toilet on site, they can't go. And so in the past, that would have been a huge barrier. But now with things like Google Maps and other mapping softwares and websites, You can find out if there's a toilet there without having to have a guidebook. You can find out if there's a car park. You can find out where the nearest food places are as well. It helps you to plan and make sure that space is going to work for you. can even see what people describe about it, about that particular green space.

Kae: So Google Maps can be really helpful in finding stuff about accessibility and also online local maps can help as well. So there's a project going on in York called Wild York where they've made a website. It's got the city boundaries and on it they've marked every single green space there is. And if you click on the green space, it's got parking, toilets, volunteering opportunities, opening times and that can be very helpful for people who live in York who like want to get outside more. And I think there are probably other versions of that elsewhere. And I think that is another example of how maps can help people to get outside and engage with nature.

Freddie: Yeah, absolutely. And a friend of ours as well could be a cool actually created a map like that for London as well of London's local nature reserves, which is again a brilliant author. for people living in the city to find and connect with local green spaces in their area as well.

Xander: I think it's really interesting because you both talk about respectively as local residents and how they can find out about nature spaces near them. I always use these maps like on holiday. So when I went to York, for example, we were looking around all the different green spaces located on Google Maps and we were looking around all the different places we could go nearby. Same when we go to London. So we were able to see all the different places and make plans accordingly. And again, you can look at the reviews and such. I remember when we went to Wales, often these places have descriptions where people will say it's either easy, intermediate or hard to do the walk and what type of ability you have to have to do those. And also the length of the walk too, it just makes it so you can know and plan when you're on holiday or if you're living locally. So I think it's so invaluable and so useful for accessibility by accessing these spaces, I haven't to have that worry about is this too much for me or are they going to be toilets and such?

Alana: I always remember there was one review, I think I'm pretty sure it was on Google, but I think it was of Ben Nevis.

Xander: I was thinking of.

Alana: Yeah, so there was a review that I once read and it was one star for Ben Nevis, one out of five. No cafe at the top. And that was it. That was the review. And it's just like, this is a mountain, but okay.

Xander: Because people have been spoiled, Snowdon (Yr Wyddfa), there's a train all the way up there, you know?

Kae: Is that the Welsh name?

Xander: Yeah. I got a sausage roll there. There's a train up and down. And then, yeah. But again, if you go on these websites, you can read this review of this angry person and go, he's silly, but then when you don't, when you go up to Ben Nevis yourself, you don't, you take a pat lunch.

Freddie: Well, it's lucky for you being able to take the train up Snowdon (Yr Wyddfa) when I was on my Duke of Edinburgh expedition, our DofE instructors for no particular reason made us go up and over snowed in the most difficult way it's possible to go along the knife edge south ridge of the mountain. So I'm glad that at least you had that brilliant experience of being able to sit on a train while we were hiking up the steepest possible way up.

Xander: I believe I was 6 at the time, so I may have died if it went up your way. Fortunately, we have maps and maps tell us lots of information about the trails and the things and how to inform us. So traditionally maps would have been paper-based. You would have had things like OS maps. Kae, is that the type of thing that you'd have loads of in your rucksack?

Kae: Yes. Again, I run away from technology. When I go hiking, it's very much DofE-esque. I avoid technology unless I'm lost and I love using OS maps, like paper ones, because it's like I can navigate myself. But Yes, OS maps are great if people want to get out in nature. It's how you can go hiking, make sure you don't get lost, know everything's safe. And what a lot of people don't realize is there is an app which you can scan, which has the OS map on it. If you want the official print, you have to pay for it, I think, since subscription. But in your paper OS map, I think there's a QR code, which you can scan, which means that you get a free version online. So Always carry a paper OS map just in case your phone dies or there's no signal. I will say that like as a backup, but like a digital one can be very useful too.

Alana: I only realized this like maybe a few months ago and I kind of ran straight to my cupboard with the OS maps in and just like went through all the different codes like adding them onto the app. But it was really good to do. And then you can zoom in really close. And it's just that extra backup of a map as well.

Kae: So you always have to carry a paper one.

Xander: But now technology, you can make your own paper ones, can't you?

Alana: Yeah, you can order your own paper ones, but this is not a commercial thing.

Freddie: You may get map centred on your house. I thought that was really cool.

Alana: Give me a free map. Absolutely. Go for it.

Xander: So Alana, is there anything else you wanted to add on the topic of maps?

Alana: Yeah, so just one more extra bonus point I suppose is on Google Maps, especially in the desktop version, if there is a space where it's not labelled and you would like other people to be able to find that space, you can right click and click add a missing space and then add the details about that green space or that park or whatever. because actually there's a lot of spaces that might appear like community orchards, which may not have always been there, but you can then add details to that so people can then find those spaces a lot easier. And then you can add the accessibility features and photos and things like that. So it can be really helpful for other people if you want to help people access green spaces.

Xander: Totally. And another thing you could do if you ever wanted to is if you want to be able to access things and know about them is make videos for social media. And I believe Kate, that is what you wish to bring to the table today.

Kae: Yes, I would like to bring social media to the table. And I know that social media gets a lot of bad rep for a good reason. There's definitely bad things about it out there. However, I think social media can also have really positive impacts, especially on establishing a connection with nature. For example, Lots of wildlife charities such as the RSPB and the Wetland Trust, they will put posts on there about different species of birds you'll see at different reserves and they can make them quite funny as well such as bird of the week which might make it stick in your head more and that is very good at engaging young people and helping people get more aware of nature around them and as well As well as just connecting with nature, social media can be really important in connecting with other young people as well. So one thing I found and this is what I tell other young people if they're just getting started out in the youth in nature sector is that most people know everyone else and that's Yes, maybe because of in-person events, but when I went to Global Birdfair this year, I knew about 5 people there that I'd never met before because of our social media and we'd liked each other's posts and stuff, but that meant that we were aware of each other. And we were aware of each other's existence because of that and it definitely helps you build that connection with other young people because I do know a lot of others, even if I've never met them. But hopefully I will meet them at some point. That's just my point.

Alana: And I think for me, social media was also a really great way. I mean, that's how we met in the first place, really, through the Young Voices for Nature project was kind of seeing that opportunity to be posted onto social media. So it's also a great way to just find out like what organisations are running, what projects they're doing, and then potentially how you can get involved in that as well, which is really nice, I think.

Kae: Definitely.

Freddie: And I think we're seeing a lot recently at the moment about kind of charities, like kind of giving over that freedom and giving of kind of letting go of a tight kind of idea of like a fixed brand of what nature charities should be like and actually kind of giving way to more kind of creative freedom as well, which I think is really lovely, like kind of actually creating funny and silly videos that aren't exactly kind of the professional tone that you would expect from such charities, but kind of creating these brilliant videos that actually are really funny and really engaging and reaching outside of the echo chamber and engaging young people who never normally would engage with a charity.

Xander: But it's not just It's not just these organisations, they are doing great in helping to spread awareness and knowledge, but I also find as someone relatively new that people will have highlight species, they'll highlight problems and challenges and if someone tries to learn what's going on, it's the best place to go for up-to-date information that is accurate as to the day when you don't know what you're looking for. You follow a couple of key people I know in our particular group, Raman Deep is fantastic because they will post about everything going on. And then just by following that one person, I learned so much. Obviously, the rest of you in the group, you share a lot of other things, but just following one person can just give you the insight about what's going on. And then they'll repost other people and you're like, oh, I want to know about what they're posting about too. And that's how you get connected. That's how you create that community that you were referencing, Kae. Because there's loads of young people here sharing their stories, sharing their knowledge and it's a great way to learn and to connect and notice things. Like Max Moorcroft who won the Igniting Innovation Challenge with us, he does loads on social media.

Kae: He's one of the people who I met at Bird Fair who I was aware of because of social media.

Alana: So on what Xander was saying about the up-to-date information from social media as well, that's also very relevant to a lot of different species. So for example, you've got the beaver And if you look in a lot of guides about beavers, it will be, yeah, they've been extinct in the UK for such a long time. But now reintroductions are starting to happen again in a lot of places. And that is through kind of social media that you can pick up that knowledge or being involved in the organisation. So, but if you look at like a normal mammals book, you're probably going to not see that up to date information, or we were walking around like a museum in Edinburgh.

Xander: And we saw Kae whilst we were looking at that particular exhibit.

Alana: We saw Kae there as well, which is really cool, complete coincidence, but actually that exhibit said that, you know, beavers have been extinct, but we know that that's now out of date as information.

Xander: We'd seen one the previous week, and so that's why social media is that current information that, although be aware as someone who lectures about using information correctly, you still should verify that information, particularly on social media, because it might not have the same academic quality to it as other sources. So don't take everything you say for granted, but it can be a really good way to get introductory level content that then through your experience and learning, you can verify that information in a better way.

Freddie: And it's a really positive way of sharing information as well and engaging with other people and reaching new people as well. I think I met a young photographer recently at the RSPB Rainham Marshes Nature Reserve, Essex, and I'm sure he won't mind me saying, but he's was talking to me about kind of how beneficial social media has been for him in terms of sharing his photos online. and reaching a brilliant new audience and being able to kind of share his passion. It's brilliant not only for actually engaging new audiences, but for the person who's sharing that as well. It can give, I think, a real sense of fulfilment and being able to share your achievements like that. And yeah, in a way that is engaging and is kind of getting messages across as well. It's one of the most powerful ways in the modern world of reaching new people.

Xander: I think That is a great place to end the discussion on today. I think from what I've unpicked from today's episode is actually technology, it can be a barrier to nature connection. Yes, there are ways that it can reduce your connection. But if anything, it is now, in my opinion at the least, and I think from the opinion of yourselves here today, it's easier than ever to connect to nature If you choose to, because technology can help, once you make the active choice to say you want to connect to nature and you stop looking at the phone and you start looking at the world around you, then technology can be hugely helpful in finding other people to connect to, find great spaces to see, and to learn about the world around you through those technology type apps like Merlin and Seek and other type apps. Thank you so much for your time, Kae, Freddie, Alana. It's been wonderfully insightful and I've really enjoyed this evening with you. Thank you to everyone who's been listening and thank you very much to our sponsors, The Woodland Trust.