Imperfect Activism: Can you support Taylor Swift and be an Environmentalist?

Do you need to do everything perfectly to care for nature? Can you drive and yet want to reduce carbon emissions? Can you like those who fly using private jets like Taylor Swift and still be an environmentalist?In the first topic-based episode of the Generation Nature podcast, recorded live at Global Birdfair 2025, Galatea Hoyle leads a discussion on imperfect activism. The idea? Not that we should all strive to be perfect, but that every one of us can make a positive environmental impact by living our daily lives imperfectly.

Host Galatea is joined in the episode by Kae Wrenn, Freddie Emms and Alana Wheat who share their authentic views on what they perceive an activist to be, the pressures of perfectionism in activism, and how they themselves are imperfect activists.

Episode Transcript

Galatea;

You're listening to the Generation Nature Podcast. Today's very special episode on imperfect activism was recorded live at Global Bird Fair 2025 by four members of the Generation Nature team, Alana Wheat, Freddy Emms, Kae Wrenn and myself, Galatea Hoyle.

Galatea;

Hello, you're listening to the Generation Nature Podcast, connecting you to nature one story at a time. Today I'm your host and my name is Galatea Hoyle and we are going to be exploring imperfect activism and the question that is top of everybody's minds, can you support Taylor Swift, user of the private jets and still be an activist? Today I'm joined by the other members of the Generation Nature team.

Alana;

So hello, I'm Alana, I'm age 26.

Freddie;

Hi, I'm Freddie, I'm 19.

Kae;

Hi, I'm Kae and I'm 17.

Galatea;

And to start us off, they're going to tell us why they are imperfect activists. Kae, would you like to start?

Kae;

I am an imperfect activist because now I'm 17, I'm going to learn how to drive. So in the future I'll probably have a car.

Galatea;

And Freddie?

Freddie;

I'm not vegan and I don't think everyone needs to be vegan at all. I think that it's really important to remember that whatever you eat, that doesn't matter. We are all imperfect in our own way.

Galatea;

Alana.

Alana;

And I'm part of a consumer society, so I just... go about my day-to-day life, but also just consume stuff, whether that's things like board games or TV and different things like that.

Galatea;

Okay, and our first question of the day, I'm going to dive straight in. Kae, I wonder whether you could start us on this one. How do you define activism? Is it just protest? Is it just boots on the ground?

Kae;

Well, if you asked me a couple of years ago, I would have said yes, activism is purely protest, gluing yourself to roads like Extinction Rebellion and Greenpeace and organisations like that. However, since then I've realised that activism is more like taking any positive action for, if we're talking about environmental activism, for nature or for the climate. So this could be volunteering or artivism, which can be filmmaking or creating music or craftivism, or murals and just any way to either have a direct influence on nature and the climate or to engage other people as well. I would say that my definition of activism encompasses all of those.

Freddie;

And I think that, very similar to Kae, when I first started, I don't think I would have considered myself an activist at all. So when I first got involved with organisations like the RSPB, I'm part of their youth council. We do lots of work with trying to engage more young people with nature and with the work that the RSPB is doing as well and try to mobilise young people to take action for nature. And I don't think at all that at first I would have considered that activism. I think that, yeah, like I would have like Kae associated activism with the typical idea of going on protests and going on marches. Actually, if you kind of zoom out and look at the very roots of the word activism itself, I love language, I'm studying language at university and I think that if you look at the word activism, literally it means someone who takes action. So I would argue that actually every one of us on this planet is an activist in some way, shape or form. It's just about kind of where we choose to direct the action that we take. Every one of us takes action in our daily lives. We are all kind of living, functioning beings and yeah, it's just about kind of how we utilize the action we take and how we ensure that we are making a positive difference through our daily lives.

Alana;

No, I absolutely agree with that because it's that like it is just doing an action for something that you care about as well. So I think for me it's really picking some goals that you feel very passionate about and very strong about and then kind of trying to identify how you can work towards those goals to achieve them. So I think that's what it really is for me, is just kind of choosing what you feel passionate about and then going for it from there.

Galatea;

So activism isn't protest, it's about taking part, to quote a wonderful film that we were all part of called Our Beautiful Wild. So I'm going to move us on to the question of the day, which is can you still be an activist and support Taylor Swift? Can you still be an activist if you do things that aren't perfect? Does anyone want to start us off or would you like me to?

Freddie;

Yes, absolutely.

Galatea;

Me too. So I think you can still be an activist and support Taylor Swift. I think every little inch that you can give is very important. I personally can't always attend protests. I have health conditions, so I do what I can from home. And sometimes I can't do anything. And I still use single-use plastic. I am not a perfect person, but I still consider myself an activist. And I wonder what you guys' thoughts on how, what level can you take this to? Could someone who works for an oil company still be an environmental activist? Is there an upper limit to your impact where you can still consider yourself an activist?

Kae;

I would say yes. we're taking the example of a fossil fuel company, then if that is your job and that's how you earn a living and this is what you need to survive, then absolutely yes, you can be an activist. But if you are the CEO and you are very, very rich anyway and you are basically directing this massive company which is essentially destroying the planet, then I think I would draw the line there.

Galatea;

Okay, that's interesting. Does anyone agree or disagree?

Alana;

I definitely agree. I think you can be an activist within organisations that potentially are emitting fossil fuels or are destroying the environment in some way because what you can do is help to change that organisation from within the organisation and I think that's a really powerful thing. So whether that's being on a trustee board and being a trustee, that's a really powerful activism kind of thing that a lot of people don't consider as activism. but that allows you to put kind of suggestions in or different ideas across. Or even if you're just a staff member within that company, you can put forward sustainability ideas or if you've got land and green space around that area, you can ask for biodiversity projects and things like that. So there's definitely things you can do within organisations as an activist.

Freddie;

And I think we really need that. It's so important. I think we talk a lot about green jobs as if green jobs is this kind of this sector, this particular sector of society that's just wholly dedicated to sustainability, working in the nature space and making a difference through that way through charities and ENGOs and that kind of thing. But actually we really need to kind of change that narrative. I think that every job can and needs to be a green job and just as every skill needs to be a green skill. And we need to be, I mean it starts in schools, we need to be kind of teaching about nature and teaching about the environment in a way that is interdisciplinary and that shows that actually it's so fundamental to our society and to our culture that it is relevant to every school subject, every career. every kind of skill set, everyone can use their skill set to make a difference and I think that's really important to remember because we need activists in every sector of society because the climate and nature crisis is one of the most intersectional issues of our time and so it goes without saying that it needs an intersectional solution as well. We're not going to go anywhere if we're just kind of acting from one kind of niche sector of society. It needs to be very much kind of integrated across the whole of society. That's where we're going to make that wider systematic change.

Galatea;

I might even disagree with you Kae and say that perhaps even CEOs could be, perhaps retired CEOs. I'm part of a Rewilding organisation and speaking to some of the CEOs of Rewilding, a lot of their funding is coming from retired finance fund managers who were exceptionally rich and have made their money in oil and have led these companies and they're now realising that they regret the path they've taken or realising the impact that it's had and they are now turning to rewilding is the way that they can make up for the impact that they've had. And also people who are making money in big oil, people from Saudi Arabia are actually investing very heavily in rewilding. So while it is very hidden and perhaps not talked about very much, there are people in those industries that do care. And you should be careful because a lot of it could be greenwashing and you do need to, you have an open mind but also, you know, engaged critically, but it is something I think our sector needs to welcome everybody with open arms because if we seem scary or unapproachable, they are never going to come to us. So if you are hiding in the audience and you are an oil executive, welcome. Please stay here, please contribute to the environmental movement. So our next question is why do you think that there is so much pressure to be perfect in the activism sort of sector and how do we support each other within that? So Kae, would you like to start?

Kae;

I think there is a massive taboo in the environmental sector that if you are a climate activist or work in nature conservation, you have to be vegan, not drive a car, only travel in the UK, and only, and recycle a lot and stuff. But this is fuelled a lot by the media. And I watched an interview where a certain presenter was interviewing a young climate activist and she was about our age and he basically asked her a bit about the charity she runs and then he just looked at her and said, do you drive? What kind of laptop do you have? Do you use fast fashion? And he just kept on attacking her and she's like 17. And this is on live TV. And not only is that horrible, because that's not a very nice thing to do, also to live in this world we cannot be perfect. One of the issues with working in nature conservation is a lot of the time it is out in the middle of nowhere. So you can't exactly cycle to up to the top of a mountain to look after cows. So you need to drive. And that is an unfortunate fact that comes with working in that sector. And if people are going to attack any activist they see for the slightest mistake or the slightest imperfection, then that's going to make people less likely to come into the sector because they're going to get attacked. And I think there's a massive issue with that.

Alana;

I also think it's really interesting about how you're saying you've got to drive to get to those spaces as well because actually a really big part of what we need to do in this nature conservation movement is bring the nature into these urban spaces and into where we're living as well so that we don't have to drive and you can do that activism and citizen science and whatever you need to do on your doorstep so that isn't a barrier to joining in with conservation and with biodiversity actions.

Freddie;

But I think it's just such, going back to what Kae was saying, I think it's just such an unhelpful perspective. I've, it really doesn't help anything take, like, attacking these activists who, you know, all we're doing is trying to... make a difference. We know we're not perfect. We acknowledge that. But all we want is a better future, essentially. Activists throughout history have been villainized. The suffragettes in their time were villainized. And even now we see protest groups being villainized. And it's just it's not helpful at all. We really need to show that actually these people are just trying to make a difference. Maybe their tactics may be disruptive. They may mean that someone doesn't get to their meeting on time, that they are slightly delayed in traffic. But actually throughout history we've seen that we never get anywhere by sticking to the rule book and by functioning solely within these systems that there are many unavoidable things in the system that we can't avoid. And, but we've seen in the past that these groups have been successful. The suffragettes may change. So many other groups have actually succeeded in their aims because of the action that they're doing. And, you know, I've been on protests before. I was on the Restore Nature Now march last year, which was a brilliant atmosphere. And it was spoiled only slightly. Just about halfway through the march, there was a person standing on the sidelines And I've heard stories from other actors with similar people saying very similar things, but just shouting. your shoes are made of oil, your clothes are made of oil, and it we it's not this is not helpful at all. We don't need more conflict within this world we need we need more collaboration, and I think that this kind of attitude is just isn't going to get us anywhere at all.

Kae;

Yeah, it's like climate activist Clover Hogan said, we don't need 100 perfect activists, we need a million imperfect ones.

Galatea;

Yeah, absolutely. And I think part of all of this issue comes from the fact that a lot of our media is controlled and paid for by large capitalist companies that benefit from pushing all of the pressure on the consumer rather than taking responsibility themselves. So by pressuring the activists themselves who are a part of a massive consumer society, capitalist society, where it is much more affordable to buy a t-shirt that's made of polyester than find one that is sustainable, unless you're going to pay for all of these activists to be able to afford their lovely cotton t-shirts, then I don't think that the activists themselves should feel that pressure. I think it's an issue that comes from these companies themselves and that is pushed by the media and is now pushed by other people who are living in this big media bubble. So we've talked about the issue itself, but how would you guys recommend that we support each other as a community of activists? How would you support other activists who are perhaps struggling, perhaps they have been a victim of one of these people at a protest who are shouting at them, telling them about the oil in their shoes.

Alana;

I think for me it's really about communities and coming together, like us as Generation Nature, we did exactly that as we found each other, we're all across the UK. which is amazing, but then actually we've all come from those spaces of isolation and from feeling that we're the only one that cares and we're the only person that wants to do anything about biodiversity or climate. So by joining together and joining organisations like UK Youth for Nature and organisations like that where it's about networking for young people, you get to find those like-minded people who will give you that energy to keep going and help you to avoid burnout, which is I think really important for me personally.

Freddie;

And not being afraid to engage in conversations as well with other people, I think it can feel like such a hostile topic almost to bring up sometimes. And it's still so niche, it's still so kind of alienated from mainstream society, this idea of being a climate activist. You know, you've got the stereotypes of the tree hugger, the eco warrior. But don't be afraid to have these conversations, but conversations are how we move forward and how we kind of challenge stereotypes, challenge misconceptions. So talk to people, talk to your friends and family, look at why, try and engage with these people, try and look at actually why do they hold that perspective, where are they coming from? Because it's very rarely from a place of, you know, like malice. They don't usually kind of want to want to be purposefully like combative, it's just about often it's they're misinformed, they don't, it's because of kind of the bubble that they find themselves in and the news and the media that they see and that they experience on a day-to-day basis. I think it, yeah, we really need, as you say, to find that community to come together. And I think that having conversations, being open and honest, and not being afraid to back down, like sharing your experiences is really important. We need that dialogue if we are going to get anywhere at all.

Kae;

I can say from experience that getting really angry may feel really good because you feel like it's getting somewhere. But I yelled at a really top conservative minister and nothing happened. So yeah, word of warning.

Galatea;

So I think media literacy is something that's really important, like you were saying, education. What I remember during the first Extinction Rebellion protests, one of the things that made the news was not the thousands of people turn out and the amazing impact that it had. There's been several studies that suggest the Extinction Rebellion themselves made a massive positive impact on the environmental movement. But actually what they reported on was that someone wearing an Extinction Rebellion badge was seen in a McDonald's and it was the media picking up on that hypocrisy. So it's teaching people to be considerate when they're looking at their media, where they're getting it from and are they seeing the whole story. We're living in the age of social media and misinformation and I think we're really missing out on media literacy in our education systems. It's quite, there's volume of it, it's quite a recent problem and it's one that we're not tackling enough. Does anyone have anything we want to add, or would they like me to move on to the next question?

Freddie;

Extinction Rebellion has been successful, and Just Stop Oil was successful as well. They're absolutely villainized in the media, but they've kind of now been winding down their activity, I think. But because they were successful in their activity, even now we're seeing that these groups are being successful. The government has promised no new oil and gas licenses, which was their main aim. So, you know, we may villainize them, we may not like their techniques, but this is this is how we get somewhere and it's not just these techniques that we need, it's not just direct action, we need a wide range of kind of techniques and organizations doing different things to engage different groups of people. But we absolutely shouldn't villainize certain techniques. I think we, yeah, it's so important to recognize that we need a wide range of actions in a wide range of places by a wide range of people to be able to make a difference.

Alana;

Yeah, absolutely. And it's that thing where the media often says, like, it's all or it's nothing kind of thing. So you can't be a bit of everything or you can't support certain things if you support things like the podcast title, can we support Taylor Swift whilst also being an activist? It's like, actually, we need to do a bit of whatever we can do, but we do need to do more than a bit because we are in a crisis and the situation is not getting better at the moment except for in some cases for biodiversity which is fantastic. But yeah, so I think it's kind of trying to get away from that perfectionism angle and just to do whatever we can in the time that we have.

Galatea;

Excellent. And the final question for today is about intersectionality. So we all know that the climate crisis is linked heavily with a lot of the other crises that are going on. And I know I for one care about so many of them. And I was wondering if you are an activist for one thing, should you be an activist for everything? And how do you balance that? Kae, would you like to start?

Kae;

I think it's very, very important that we are activists for as much stuff as we can. I am a climate activist, I'm also queer, I'm non-binary, but I, so LGBTQ plus rights, that is my other big thing that I really care about and that I will go and do so much for that as well.

Freddie;

I think like you were saying Galatea, everything is so interconnected and that actually just taking climate action isn't necessarily mutually exclusive to other things. I think it's about like all of these systems are so interconnected, the systems that... kind of the oppressed, like minorities are the same systems that are perpetrating climate change. And so if we're working to combat one aspect of that system, we are working more widely to combat all of them. And I think that actually we as activists, we can't be doing everything at once. It's not physically possible. But I think just doing as much as we can and engaging in dialogue as well. Again, like being open about and kind of expressing the fact that actually all of these systems are interconnected and that kind of that we by taking action for one we are taking action for another and kind of spreading that information and to other people and kind of raising awareness of the cause root causes of some of these issues and the fact that they are also interlinked and I think that's really important and I think so I think it's We as activists, we can't put too much pressure on ourselves to do everything because it's just not possible. We need to do as much as we can and that is ultimately contributing to a better society on our own way. There are so many activists in so many sectors all kind of working towards their goals, but I think these goals are not at all mutually exclusive. We're all ultimately working towards the same goal, which is a better future. And I think that's really important to remember.

Alana;

Yeah, absolutely. agree because that whole interconnectedness of society in general and everything's in systems so you've got ecosystems, social systems and economic systems and I think that really requires that systems thinking approach to think actually how is this all interconnected so if I do this action how does it help another action. because so many different things are like, I don't know if you've ever seen, there's a kind of cake tier model that was created by the Stockholm Resilience Centre to describe kind of how the society sits within the environment and the economy sits within society. So if we're doing something just for, I don't know, the environment and just the environment, not including people, then does that matter if then the society like system that we have collapses anyway? And likewise with if we're just doing something for the economy, is that going to matter if the whole environment has just collapsed? So it's kind of thinking about how all of them impact each other. And I think that's a really important thing. But then as an individual, that can be quite overwhelming to think about. And I often sit there getting very overwhelmed. But then somebody said something to me, which is pick your battles. You can't do everything all at once. And you definitely can't do it all perfectly either. So pick what you want to do and what you want to strive for, much like Kae is doing. and saying, right, this is what I care about, and then go from there and see what happens.

Galatea;

I think it's partly about seeing where you can be most effective. There was a trans rights protest in my town that I couldn't attend. but what I could do was create an Instagram post that ended up getting over 1,500 views and actually I think perhaps that action in the end had more impact than had I attended that protest that I wanted to go to. So it's about seeing where you're most effective and also protecting yourself. You need to make sure you're taking time to take care of yourself and your needs because you cannot be an activist if you are completely burnt out. So make sure that you're balancing yourself carefully. I'm going to thank everybody for listening. I think the key messages from today's podcast is about educating others as well as you don't need to be perfect. I think that's the takeaway from today's question is as Kae quoted, we need many, many imperfect activists and I think anyone is welcome. So thank you for listening. We have been Generation Nature. You can find us on Instagram at Generation Nature Stories.

Galatea;

Generation Nature is funded by a grant from the Woodland Trust's Igniting Innovation Challenge, and our theme song was written and performed by Field Lily. We'd like to thank Charlie Bingham and Oscar Henderson for helping to facilitate this live episode at Global Bird Fair. The Generation Nature podcast is produced by the young people on the Generation Nature team. Alana Wheat, Ashley Greening, Freddie Emms, James Demierre, Jessica Humphreys, Kae Wrenn, Natasha Ballantyne, Ramandeep Nijjar, Rufus Dawson, Xander Wood, and myself, Galatea Hoyle.